Sounds interesting, though how you retain it as 'your' project would be a challenge. Would you open source it, or use a creative commons model?
I've had a great interaction with my readers over the years which at times feels like collaboration, but most readers tend towards a more casual, passive mode. I wonder whether you'll have a group who will be into the ideas and world building, but more interested in the non-fiction research angle, and a separate group there for the fiction/end product.
I’ll admit, any project that encourages audience participation immediately triggers alarm bells in my head now because of the Realms of Ruin fiasco (courtesy of Marie Lu and other YA authors). Long story short: it was an interactive storytelling project that had ill-devised and opaque methods of crowdsourcing ideas from the fanbase. It was a bit of a pyramid scheme and it seemed especially predatory because the YA authors involved were going to weasel money and content out of their impressionable young fans.
It was icky! And this isn’t to say that your project would be anything like that, or that an interactive/collaborative fiction project at that scale is impossible.
But I think the thing about writing novels in public, *with* the public, is that all of the legal and copyright stuff needs to be really really clearly defined. There’s a reason a lot of authors don’t read headcanons or fanfic of their own work - because if they’re inspired by those ideas and use it, it opens up a whole can of worms. The legal world hasn’t necessarily caught up to the reality of media-making today, and that leaves a lot of onus on *you* to have very clear boundaries around what ideas are yours (and therefore profitable) and what belongs to everyone else.
How you’re describing Oblivion and its potential doesn’t sound like a novel - it sounds like contextual art. It sounds like an overarching idea that will manifest in several different forms, all technically housed under the name “Oblivion”, all technically credited to you, but able to bend and shift into new mediums as necessary. Which is very exciting! And also comes with different audience and institutional expectations re: participation and credit.
I like your idea very much as a writer, psychoanalyst, mother and grandmother. I have a thought that might be helpful. The young generation spends hours every day creating alternative worlds. So I told my 13 and 11 year old grandsons about your idea. The thirteen year old burst with ideas even for the opening structure of such a novel, nevertheless how it might grow and escalate. Would you entertain young ideas and young writers (both boys write beautifully) to be part of your cast of writers? Let me know what you think. It would surely be unusual to create a novel like you have in mind with writers of different generations. After all it is the young people who could imagine living in your humanitarian utopia, kids whose lives have been so absorbed by the pandemic, deeply conflictual politics, and Ukraine. These kids live in a worrld of our making and are too young to be pushed into such conflicts yet they are. They are empathic kids who do worry about the future but also have ideas about how things could be.
Dear Elle, I found it interesting that later that night at dinner Zander (the 13 year old) was still thinking about your idea. He's not only amazingly bright, son of a brilliant father (whose daily work as an engineer is indeed futuristic in the projects he's involved in creating) so Zander is fascinated by the future world beyond most kids his age. He's also a really good writer. He has me edit for him. His punctuation may lag behind his ideas because he's so excited by the tension he builds in his futuristic stories. But the characters care about each other. He creates hopeful scenarios. The flashing scenes with fire coming out of the hands of a character when his emotions are high are filled with empathy, not typical sci fi stuff of kids his age that simplify good and evil. His characters have rich insides.
So I am writing again because he asked me to ask your permission to email with you.I said I could just give him your email, but this lovely boy is also polite! He seeks your permission. Here is his email if you could take a moment of your precious time and write to him in your own words what you are looking for. That would be a great service to the new generation you're thinking about with your project. He'll be worth every moment of your time.
This is a great idea. I'd like to suggest you include teen writers who spend hours creating alternative worlds. My 13 year old grandson asked for permission to write to you. Brilliant kid bursting with ideas for your project. This is the generation that should be thought about having just lived through years of the Pandemic, complex political conflicts, and now Ukraine. They strive for utopian ideals. His brilliant father who he's becoming similar to literally creates engineering feats taking into account climate change. He asked if he can write to you. Would you respond? His name is Zander (alexanderhollman@gmail.com)
Laurie Hollman, Ph.D., psychoanalyst with specialized clinical training in infant-parent, child, adolescent, and adult psychotherapy, an expert on the Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the Psychology of Women. elaborately illustrated in her captivating book, published in 2020: “Are You Living with a Narcissist? How Narcissistic Men Impact Your Happiness, How to Identify Them, and How to Avoid Raising Them.” In 2021 her most recent arrival on the Parenting scene was: “Playing with Your Baby: Research Based Play to Bond with Your Baby from Birth to One Year” which received the Gold Mom’s Choice Award prior to its release July 20, 2021.
Her clinical experience has paved the way for her recent shift to the world of fiction.
I support this! Mainly because it’s experimental and the more I dive into marketing and writing my own stories, the more I realize that being experimental is key to figuring out what works. Not only that, but there’s a high chance of stumbling onto something that is even more exciting than the traditional methods we all know. For example, I’m personally interested in what Realm is doing and what Sentinel Creatives Podcast is doing with their fully immersive audio experiences. Graphic Audio does this well already for traditional publishing but I see this becoming huge in the indie world in the near future. Great post, Elle! I’ll be interested to see where this goes for sure.
I like where you’re going with this. And I’m interested to see what happens. I’m launching my novel on Substack next week and I’ve been trying to figure out how to market it to different communities. It’s heavily influenced by synth pop of the 80s and synth wave of the late 2000s and early 2010s which has a niche online community. I could also tap into the Gen X/Xennial communities on Reddit which is the age of the characters. Funny you mentioned this because I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately.
Odd suggestion....one possible horse to ride, with almost unbelievable numbers of people involved, would be along the lines of gardening and permaculture. Fits your dystopian/post dystopian technology idea too.
I definitely think it’s possible if you’re able to get your work in front of a lot of people that are interested in these areas. ...The electric bike thing, though, no! I got hurt on mine the first day! 🤣
I am fascinated by your idea. I've been thinking about doing my book Nova Interitus [ https://novainteritus.substack.com/ ] as a scaled down version of your proposal. Scaled down as in, your project sound amazingly daunting but very cool. Scaled down as in, I'm just looking for some readers who like the story enough to offer ideas and thought.
I just started writing Nova in the last few months. It's still in process. The first chapter was a flood from the Muse. My speculative world opened and I now must write this book. But I am not a professional writer, and hopefully this can turn into a side gig for me. If I can get some readership who contributes and comments, it will help inform the direction of my narrative. If I gather enough positive feedback, I can justify putting the time into writing this story. Dipping my toes into the idea here on Substack. Your articles have been an inspiration for me to see what may be possible here.
I agree publishing has to change and why not create the world you want to live in. I'm all about longevity--at 77, I just published my first novel and in the process stumbled on courage. Turns out to be connected to the gut--aha! One thing is for sure, you're gonna need lots of courage for this project. If you need a recipe, I've got one for courage: https://bit.ly/37lvNYo
Elle, I've always admired your strategic bent, and although you're still very much in the strategic lane, I'm not feeling any passion from this proposal.
Nowhere do I feel that you've *got* to write this fantasy series. That it will feed your soul, meet your needs, answer the questions you've been asking yourself for years. All of which feeds into making it entertaining.
Without that type of passion hooking your readers' curiosity, and because your Gothic debut seems so different from a fantasy...well, it's hard to see this succeeding.
But if this is an authentic passion project, you might be able to attract an audience.
This is something I’ve been wondering about for years. Artists often create works based on passion for an idea, then struggle to figure how to market it. When you start the process by tapping into and serving an existing online community, I suspect it’ll help solve that problem.
Can’t wait to read about your journey with this one!
What happened to the artist? . . .
Sounds interesting, though how you retain it as 'your' project would be a challenge. Would you open source it, or use a creative commons model?
I've had a great interaction with my readers over the years which at times feels like collaboration, but most readers tend towards a more casual, passive mode. I wonder whether you'll have a group who will be into the ideas and world building, but more interested in the non-fiction research angle, and a separate group there for the fiction/end product.
I’ll admit, any project that encourages audience participation immediately triggers alarm bells in my head now because of the Realms of Ruin fiasco (courtesy of Marie Lu and other YA authors). Long story short: it was an interactive storytelling project that had ill-devised and opaque methods of crowdsourcing ideas from the fanbase. It was a bit of a pyramid scheme and it seemed especially predatory because the YA authors involved were going to weasel money and content out of their impressionable young fans.
It was icky! And this isn’t to say that your project would be anything like that, or that an interactive/collaborative fiction project at that scale is impossible.
But I think the thing about writing novels in public, *with* the public, is that all of the legal and copyright stuff needs to be really really clearly defined. There’s a reason a lot of authors don’t read headcanons or fanfic of their own work - because if they’re inspired by those ideas and use it, it opens up a whole can of worms. The legal world hasn’t necessarily caught up to the reality of media-making today, and that leaves a lot of onus on *you* to have very clear boundaries around what ideas are yours (and therefore profitable) and what belongs to everyone else.
How you’re describing Oblivion and its potential doesn’t sound like a novel - it sounds like contextual art. It sounds like an overarching idea that will manifest in several different forms, all technically housed under the name “Oblivion”, all technically credited to you, but able to bend and shift into new mediums as necessary. Which is very exciting! And also comes with different audience and institutional expectations re: participation and credit.
You should look into the transmedia process.
Dear Elle,
I like your idea very much as a writer, psychoanalyst, mother and grandmother. I have a thought that might be helpful. The young generation spends hours every day creating alternative worlds. So I told my 13 and 11 year old grandsons about your idea. The thirteen year old burst with ideas even for the opening structure of such a novel, nevertheless how it might grow and escalate. Would you entertain young ideas and young writers (both boys write beautifully) to be part of your cast of writers? Let me know what you think. It would surely be unusual to create a novel like you have in mind with writers of different generations. After all it is the young people who could imagine living in your humanitarian utopia, kids whose lives have been so absorbed by the pandemic, deeply conflictual politics, and Ukraine. These kids live in a worrld of our making and are too young to be pushed into such conflicts yet they are. They are empathic kids who do worry about the future but also have ideas about how things could be.
Regards,
Laurie Hollman
lauriehollmanphd.com
Laurie Hollman, Ph.D. <dr.lauriehollman@gmail.com>
4:01 PM (2 hours ago)
to Elle
Dear Elle, I found it interesting that later that night at dinner Zander (the 13 year old) was still thinking about your idea. He's not only amazingly bright, son of a brilliant father (whose daily work as an engineer is indeed futuristic in the projects he's involved in creating) so Zander is fascinated by the future world beyond most kids his age. He's also a really good writer. He has me edit for him. His punctuation may lag behind his ideas because he's so excited by the tension he builds in his futuristic stories. But the characters care about each other. He creates hopeful scenarios. The flashing scenes with fire coming out of the hands of a character when his emotions are high are filled with empathy, not typical sci fi stuff of kids his age that simplify good and evil. His characters have rich insides.
So I am writing again because he asked me to ask your permission to email with you.I said I could just give him your email, but this lovely boy is also polite! He seeks your permission. Here is his email if you could take a moment of your precious time and write to him in your own words what you are looking for. That would be a great service to the new generation you're thinking about with your project. He'll be worth every moment of your time.
Please write to: alexander.hollman@gmail.com (We call him Zander) I know he's hoping to hear from you.
A quick response to me would be appreciated. Thanks.
Laurie Hollman
lauriehollmanphd.com
This is a great idea. I'd like to suggest you include teen writers who spend hours creating alternative worlds. My 13 year old grandson asked for permission to write to you. Brilliant kid bursting with ideas for your project. This is the generation that should be thought about having just lived through years of the Pandemic, complex political conflicts, and now Ukraine. They strive for utopian ideals. His brilliant father who he's becoming similar to literally creates engineering feats taking into account climate change. He asked if he can write to you. Would you respond? His name is Zander (alexanderhollman@gmail.com)
Laurie Hollman
lauriehollmanphd.com
social reach: 24,600
Laurie Hollman, Ph.D., psychoanalyst with specialized clinical training in infant-parent, child, adolescent, and adult psychotherapy, an expert on the Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the Psychology of Women. elaborately illustrated in her captivating book, published in 2020: “Are You Living with a Narcissist? How Narcissistic Men Impact Your Happiness, How to Identify Them, and How to Avoid Raising Them.” In 2021 her most recent arrival on the Parenting scene was: “Playing with Your Baby: Research Based Play to Bond with Your Baby from Birth to One Year” which received the Gold Mom’s Choice Award prior to its release July 20, 2021.
Her clinical experience has paved the way for her recent shift to the world of fiction.
I support this! Mainly because it’s experimental and the more I dive into marketing and writing my own stories, the more I realize that being experimental is key to figuring out what works. Not only that, but there’s a high chance of stumbling onto something that is even more exciting than the traditional methods we all know. For example, I’m personally interested in what Realm is doing and what Sentinel Creatives Podcast is doing with their fully immersive audio experiences. Graphic Audio does this well already for traditional publishing but I see this becoming huge in the indie world in the near future. Great post, Elle! I’ll be interested to see where this goes for sure.
I like where you’re going with this. And I’m interested to see what happens. I’m launching my novel on Substack next week and I’ve been trying to figure out how to market it to different communities. It’s heavily influenced by synth pop of the 80s and synth wave of the late 2000s and early 2010s which has a niche online community. I could also tap into the Gen X/Xennial communities on Reddit which is the age of the characters. Funny you mentioned this because I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately.
Odd suggestion....one possible horse to ride, with almost unbelievable numbers of people involved, would be along the lines of gardening and permaculture. Fits your dystopian/post dystopian technology idea too.
I definitely think it’s possible if you’re able to get your work in front of a lot of people that are interested in these areas. ...The electric bike thing, though, no! I got hurt on mine the first day! 🤣
I am fascinated by your idea. I've been thinking about doing my book Nova Interitus [ https://novainteritus.substack.com/ ] as a scaled down version of your proposal. Scaled down as in, your project sound amazingly daunting but very cool. Scaled down as in, I'm just looking for some readers who like the story enough to offer ideas and thought.
I just started writing Nova in the last few months. It's still in process. The first chapter was a flood from the Muse. My speculative world opened and I now must write this book. But I am not a professional writer, and hopefully this can turn into a side gig for me. If I can get some readership who contributes and comments, it will help inform the direction of my narrative. If I gather enough positive feedback, I can justify putting the time into writing this story. Dipping my toes into the idea here on Substack. Your articles have been an inspiration for me to see what may be possible here.
Being willing to "spend years in solitude writing a novel that might never get read" is what makes a writer.
I agree publishing has to change and why not create the world you want to live in. I'm all about longevity--at 77, I just published my first novel and in the process stumbled on courage. Turns out to be connected to the gut--aha! One thing is for sure, you're gonna need lots of courage for this project. If you need a recipe, I've got one for courage: https://bit.ly/37lvNYo
Elle, I've always admired your strategic bent, and although you're still very much in the strategic lane, I'm not feeling any passion from this proposal.
Nowhere do I feel that you've *got* to write this fantasy series. That it will feed your soul, meet your needs, answer the questions you've been asking yourself for years. All of which feeds into making it entertaining.
Without that type of passion hooking your readers' curiosity, and because your Gothic debut seems so different from a fantasy...well, it's hard to see this succeeding.
But if this is an authentic passion project, you might be able to attract an audience.
I just finished the Count of Monte Cristo a few weeks ago. What does that say about my reading habits?
This is something I’ve been wondering about for years. Artists often create works based on passion for an idea, then struggle to figure how to market it. When you start the process by tapping into and serving an existing online community, I suspect it’ll help solve that problem.
Can’t wait to read about your journey with this one!